Devil’s Advocates

 Devil

Christians versus Devil: A classic!
http://knightadventure.blogspot.com/2008/06/christians-vs-devil-part-2.html
As told to Christhoper K. Knight

A man name Devil walks into a chapel in Kuala Lumpur one day when he was immediately confronted by a clergyman who thought this devil seriously needs straightening up in his opinion about Christianity. The religious man offers a ‘soul searching’ with Devil, to which Devil reluctantly agreed. But since the Clergyman has a pretty girl from Kuching Sarawak by his side during the witch-hunt Devil thought it could worth his time.

It started like usual – question like do you believe in Christ, followed by the clergyman’s reciting verses and more verses from the Holy Scripture, and then they pray together. It’s a boring affair to say the least. In short, it goes a long way before a devil can relate any of those with his personal hell. Devil wonders if all holy men were born with half the brain.

Scene 1: Chapel
The following conversation has taken place:

CLERGYMAN: You should read the bible more often, son. It really can help you in settling some of your daily problem.

Scene 3: Inside a cab
Sitting far apart in a taxi, Devil tries to start a conversation with the girl again. But the girl refuses any conversation with him. So Devil turns to the taxi driver.

We turn to the Bible all right and there we found these answers:

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1. That Prophet Samuel had asked King Saul to wipe out the entire population of tribe Amalekites after the latter was defeated in battle. That’s genocide, don’t you think?
2. That Lot’s two daughters had problem looking for husbands so they turned to their father and have sex with their father. That’s incest, don’t you think?

Scene 5: In a hotel
The following conversation has taken place:

In the name of God I fucked my daughters
http://knightadventure.blogspot.com/2008/02/christians-and-incest.html
By Devil

Incest stories from Australia:

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Story 1 (Summary)

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17 Jan 2008: An Orthodox Christian priest in the Stockholm region has been sentenced to jail after being convicted of having sex with his mentally disabled daughter.The priest was found by Södertörn District Court to have bound, beaten and had sex with the girl, 15. During the trial it emerged that the 69-year-old priest believed his daughter to be possessed by the devil. His acts of violence against her were a means of driving evil spirits from her body, the court heard. When questioned by police, the girl said that her father had forced her into sex as a means of driving Satan from her body. The priest admitted to tying his daughter up to prevent her from breaking things and injuring others, but he denied having sex with the girl. The court however found there to be compelling evidence to back up the girl’s claims and sentenced the priest to one year and three months in jail. The prison term would have been longer had not the priest also lost his job, the court said. The court found the priest guilty of assault, false imprisonment and incest. - http://www.thelocal.se/9683/20080117

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Story 2 (Summary)

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30 Aug 2007: A fundamentalist church pastor had sex with two of his teenage daughters to educate them on how to be good wives, a South Australian court has heard. The 54-year-old man was today sentenced in the SA District Court to eight and a half years jail after pleading guilty to seven counts each of incest and unlawful sexual intercourse. The court heard that the man had sex with his daughters for nearly a decade from 1991 when they were aged 13 and 15 at the family property. The sex took place at various locations including in a shearer’s shed, a paddock, on the back of a Ute and, on one occasion, at the girls’ grandparents house. The man told the court the sex was not about fulfilling his desires but about teaching his daughters how to behave for their husbands when they eventually married, as dictated in scripture. - APP

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Points of note:

1. A priest forced himself on his daughter as means of driving Satan from her body.

2. A pastor taught his daughters sex lessons so as to prepare them for the future husbands.

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You know what I feel right now? I pity men who looked for a scapegoat when things go wrong. In the two cases above they pointed to God – someone who cannot go to jail. My pity goes to God as well. Two men said He’s responsible for the incest. I truly hope God has a strong alibi.

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Anyway, here’s today’s sermon. You bet, being a devil I am what can be more rousing than to have some Christians to make example of. You know, I remember 20 years ago, when I was 17, telling a friend that I would rather be a good sinner than a bad Christian. I guess the philosophy is becoming more relevant these days. Because I just don’t know who between me and the Christians are worst now.

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After reading the court stories I have reason to believe I wasn’t that bad afterall. I may sound all the way pervert in my speech whole day but so far I have not fucked any of my daughters. Because you don’t have a daughter, shout the Christians from a corner somewhere. You’re right, I don’t have a daughter – otherwise she’ll be pregnant by now. So what’s the point you being Christians if we do evil all the same?

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But come to think of daughter-fucking, if I got the chance to do it – I wonder how it’s like; maybe I can see heaven for a short moment in between the tiring job –, I probably can own up to the shame better than you Christians can. Because you’re one downright filthy man without honour, shout the Christians again from that corner. You’re right, I am not honourable man – otherwise I also have a lot of excuses why I accidentally had a hard-on that day. Thank you very much I finally found one area in which we can’t be brothers.

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Come to think of daughter-fucking, if I got the chance to do it – I wonder how it’s like –, I think I can go to jail without dragging God along with me.

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When I stand before the judge and when people tell me my crime against the little girl was hideous, when I was told it was all the way wrong any way I look at it, when I know they’re right, when I know it was all for my selfish lust I have laid with her… the last thing I would do is to blame God for making me do it, even if indeed He did play some part in that.

The last thing I would do is to recite some loose verses from the scripture as to explain away my getting her pregnant.

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But you Christians spare nothing. You Christians were quick to Christianized just about anything. The tendency is evident when you commit a wrong and the more wrongs you committed the more desperate you want to cover it with more pages from the Holy Bible. When the Book can’t save you, the next best thing to do is go to sleep and later wake up with some manufactured dream. How sick can you be, Christians?

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So, I should lay with my daughter – or daughters even better – as a means of driving Satan from her body? Or maybe I shouldn’t, because Satan is living in me and I would only transfer the satanic fluid if I come into contact with her? Or people like me cannot cure daughters; people like you can? Very well, have it your way.

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You know, I find it very difficult to imagine how the priest can exorcise Satan from someone’s body in such fashion. That’s a very delicate method of chasing out Satan if I may say so, unknown even during the time of Jesus. If I remember correctly Jesus also drives out Satan from the hosts – He did a better job Satan did get out – but as far as I can recall, as told by the Book, never once Jesus, you know, with the men he rescued. Probably because Jesus is not gay. Whatever.

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Our enterprising priest here seemed to have another way to beat Satan – a one on one therapy over a period of time. When he couldn’t command Satan out with his finger he tried to do it using his stick. He must have suspected Satan occupies some space in the girl’s body. So, when he pushed himself into her the Satan would panic, scramble for air and out the girl’s mouth went Satan.

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The court story did not say if the priest has been successful at it but, assuming the very best, take it as gospel truth he was successful and Satan did get out. I would like everybody here to give a standing ovation to the priest for a job well done. Hallelujah. Hosanna. Hulllallelilalahuhahahillelelololol (speaking tongue).

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Job 36:2 – Bear with me a little longer and I will show you that there is more to be be said in God’s behalf.

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The pastor did a better a job, if I must say so. He had two young Christians to nurse, the youngest being 13 years old, while the priest only had one. While the priest confined his therapy to indoor the pastor’s classroom is everywhere (That should be a tough and sophisticated job for the two men, you know, considering the home-grown five-star bodies they’re working on. Furthermore, that’s unchartered territory).

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I presume the Christian Degree was very difficult to master for the two girls for it took them nearly 10 years to complete one part of the syllabus. I’m sure by now not only the daughters can be a good wife she is also a full-fledge Christian woman who can perform for the husband the Christian Sex, whatever holy position that is. I couldn’t help but to suspect the scripture must have said: Respect your husband as you respect your father; lay with him as you have laid with your father.

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Pondering upon this scripture and what it requires of the Christians, raise your hand if you regretted not having at least a daughter. Go home now and make one quick. Blessed be those parents who have many daughters.

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Genesis 19:36 – So both Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

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Now Christians while you’re at it be a Good Samaritan to me and share with me your daughters. If I can choose give me the youngest of the girls. Please, please, please today’s my birthday.

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Genesis 19: 8 – Look I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you and you can do what you like with them…

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Thank you very much.

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Christians this question I put to you. I expect answer from you; not one soul among you shall dodge responsibility. The priest said he’s driving Satan from the girl’s body. The pastor said he goes by the Book. Search now for relative truth within your system of belief and tell me if you actually believe they’re doing it for the glory of Lord God in Heaven.

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You of all people should know how popular the incest tradition among the Christians. You breathe the Christian air, wake up to the Christian light every day, go to work in Christian ways, come home in Christian style and go to bed on Christian time… you know what is going on in the Christian Kingdom. No wonder you all look the same.

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You cannot say these are isolated cases anymore for such excuse has been exhausted or overused since 1000 years ago. The priest and the pastor are respectable Christians. They were vetted by you, you, and you, before high rank duties were entrusted to them. You chose them carefully. You consulted God in your prayers before anything. Next came the Holy Spirit showing the way. Next several men were brought fourth and if I can still hear the Supreme Priest clearly he had said these men were of God, chosen by the Almighty and they shall shepherd the lamb of the Father. Wherever they herd the Christians to it is done in the way of the Father. When they took the children into bedroom, behold, they’re doing God’s work!

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Now they’re in jail what had gone wrong?

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Has God gone wrong?

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Has the judge gone wrong?

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Has the daughter gone wrong?

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Has the Christian father gone wrong?

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This cannot be isolated case anymore!

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It has been going on over and over again for many centuries. In many ways non-imaginable God was dragged along with you pervert so much so that if God is a man he would not be eligible for parole until the next Millennium.

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Could it be the Christianity is all the way pervert from the start?

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Faith is made by God; religion is man-made. Be gone with man!

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Be gone with the Christians!

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Let’s worship science knowledge for a change.

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Let’s learn the real meaning of humanity.

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Let’s build human race and stop fucking your own daughters!

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Christians, you’re now hapless, aren’t you?

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So much you wanted to say about this thing I said but you know you cannot save your religion. Do yourself a big favour – stop being bad Christian and be a good sinner like me. There’s no such thing as Good Christian, you hear me? Quite like there’s no such thing as Bad Sinner. The only thing there is you or me. Put the Book down so you have a free hand to take my hand. Together we walk into the future, hand in hand, you and me. Bury the deadly religion in the past. Let’s build rockets and fly to outer space. Let’s find God.

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Let’s seek His forgiveness for we are both sinners. Christians don’t find God because they’re already saved. As for the Priest and the Pastor… they’re already saved. They’re kidding when they named God being accomplice. They just hate to be alone in their new church – the jail.

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Ends…

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Here are some interesting disccusions during a so-called debate I have had with individuals in one local chat forum on the Internet. You see, the idea is for me to provoke others over certain interesting topics of discussion — especially topic that touches on sensitive issues, hence my being the Devil — in order to be rewarded with worthy feedbacks or something close to that. Because the more sensitive the matter is the more defensive people would become, and the more resourceful they will be in coming up with good information in support of their opinions. Sometime the debate would drag on for weeks over the Internet. No clear winner as it’s usually settled with personal attacks on each other, but that’s another story. The main story is the issue has been discussed and the least of good coming out of it it is the very fact that different people see things differently, and how much different. The gap is as wide as Heaven and Hell in some cases, if I can put it that way. How would we appreciate the virtues of good had there been no energy of bad, agree? What is God’s grace in the absence of valour of the Devil. That, ladies and gentlemen, the very benefit why we must continue fighting. Complacency is a bad habit.

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Check this out:

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On premarital sex or sexual relationship out of wedlock a girl said: "Adultry includes premaritial sex. Therefore premaritial sex is still wrong".

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My respond: I think it’s here where the Christians misled themselves with a moral perceived correct by them. The Ten Commandments holds in the 7th Commandment: "Do not commit adultery". What follows is a general question, " What is adultery?".

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Rabbinic literature defines "Adultery" as sexual intercourse between a man and a married woman who is not his wife. Now read between lines. Based on this definition of word "adultery" and if we truly follow the context of the Bible’s "adultery", the Ten Commandments for that matter, we may want to agree that sex between unmarried man and unmarried girl is therefore cannot be defined as sinful. It’s the case of do as you were told. Finish your food when your parents ask you to finish your food. Without their instruction, the finishing up food become optional to individual children. Likewise, sex out of wedlock between couple is optional. We should leave it to their good judgement whether they want to wait for the big day or do it right away. That’s their choice. That’s my view.

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That brings us to the question who says sex between unmarried couple is sinful in the first place if such nice advice does not come from God? I believe it’s the religious leaders — the preachers, the pastors, the bishops, the priests — who extend definition of adultery so as to include a NO to premarital sex. Behold! it has also been written that one should not alter, edit, or add what has been written in the Holy Book. I maintain, a no to sex out wedlock is merely an extended definition of adultery.

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Why the extended definition? So as to protect the sanctity of marriage, likely. And we, followers of the churches, can accept the new definition because it sounds morally correct to our ear. Or is it because the teaching come from a group of holy people.

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Back to the issue premarital sex. Is there a verse in the Bible that suggests it is a sin? If we were to grasp the literal meaning of the definition of adultery in the 7th Commandment, I say there’s a loose end there. Not to encourage the teenagers but if I were to take the Bible seriously hope prevails for the sex-curious youth. To extend my understanding of the grey area: You cannot fuck someone ele’s wife but you can fuck her daughter. Now here’s where the extended definition of adultery must have come into play: When two unmarried couple have sex we can’t say they engage in a sinful act as the Bible don’t say it’s a sin. Yet, to approve to that act would hurt our morals, hence the extended definition of adultery. Adultery covers any sex making in unmarried human as we know it today. The extended definition is to spare our morals. Nevertheless, it’s a definition extended by man, not GOD.

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How’s the social life like for people in the early Bible days? Now, let us not forget the way it was in the medieval era especially. We’ve heard of war brutality and inhuman treatment. The outcome of the war can become so extensive that it exploded to the scale of genocide. The winning army usually pillaged and sacked a losing city. They also raped women and children at will. Some were taken captives to be later forced into slavery. Many war stories were also told in the Old Testament. To be honest to yourself, can you say that the Israelite soldiers did not commit rape in such circumstance? Next question, was the Israelite and the woman married? So, if we were to follow the definition of adultery in the 7th Commandment then we can agree that many sons of Judea themselves have violated the Ten Commandments! No, don’t give stupid excuse like the men can do whatever they want during wartime.

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Or maybe you can try this convenient excuse, that the Ten Commandments were handed down to Moses at a much later time. Fine! Then why there is no mention in the Bible about one prophet or judge or God-chosen king who refrains the men from sexually assaulting the women captives, even after the two stone plats containing the Ten Commandments had been given to them? Rape is otherwise seen at a glance as sexual intercourse between a man and woman. In usual cases, the rapist and the victim are not related by marriage. Again, following the definition given in the 7th Commandment, how wise can we pass a judgement? We say it’s a wrong. Very well, then let’s condemn many Israelites to hell for the rape and the breaking of Commandment. Then it’s so irony that this Christian religion we devote ourselves to today originated from those we condemned to hell.

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If there’s one prophet or king or Israelite judge ever shout "No rape", let’s hear it. In fact there was only once a presumed rape has taken place in the Bible history. It’s when Amnon, eldest son of King David, took Tamar, his half-sister, to his room and raped her. Yet, Amnon went unpunished for his behaviour, not even punishment from their father. It was only two years later that Absalom, Amnon’s half-brother, assigned one assasin to kill Amnon to avenge Tamar.

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My view: You know what I find so irritating about the Bible, especially accounts written in the New Testament? It’s the apostles’s poor reporting of events. Of course I’m saying this from journalist’s point of view. I’m not claiming I am way better writer than them. For Heaven’s sake, I am only a salaried worker and they are God’s leading men, as to draw a comparison between our responsibility in our writing. And by right, they should be more responsible in their articles.
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Luke wrote the pharisees were taking the best seat in the house. Where are the best seats located? Front row or in a convenient corner? Why can’t he describe it? Another instance, Luke wrote a large crowd followed Christ to a house. How large was the crowd? How many people? 100 or 1000? Can’t he give a figure? But nothing pissed me off as this one: Luke wrote the Holy Spirit came upon the people. What’s that? A beam shining down from heaven? A glowing hollow above the men’s heads? A white dove flitting by? Fuck it Luke! Tell us what Holy Spirit is and I’ll give you a Pullitzer Prize.
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You see, Christians, I would forgive the apostles if they were inadequate in their writing, for they were no trained writers in the first place. But their inconsistence in their reporting really get to my nerves. When they record what was said by Christ or the others, they can write down in full detail, word for word. But when it comes to events or places, they leave the picture blank in most cases. As if they were assuming that their readers would know it like it is already a general knowledge, like how we need not explaining what is electric switch to classmates.
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As if the they were assuming that their writing was only meant for their generation. Did they even know that Christianity is going to be a great religion 20 centuries later?
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I say John, presumed the same last living apostle of Christ who wrote the book of Revelation, was nearly a good reporter. But when jotting down the vision he should have asked the leading angel if the beast he saw rising from the sea was made of metal or living flesh. Answer from such question could mean a great deal to the 21st century people.
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Christians, your religion is based on and evolved from what happened sometime in the past. While trying to understand your religion you should also understand history. Now, while trying to grasp the good teachings and be blessed in it please do yourself a big favour — understand the logics behind it, if there’s any. Or you don’t give a shit about logics since you’re happy with the way it already is?
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I believe in one God that’s for sure. I repeat, One God. Why would I troubled myself with the consent of virgin Mary to get to God or complicate myself with the concept of trinity if I can deal directly with God? Why bother the ‘bureaucracy’. Think out of the box for once.
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A girl respond: "Thinking out of the box gets u in trouble in this sense. That;s what the devil wants u to do anyways. Well, u go ahead with what ever it is. U dont judge what is in the BIBLE if ur not a believer, how can u believe  what is in point B if u cant get point A. Enuf said. Dont u come in here trying to influece others with ur so called thinking outside the damn box thinggi. If u want to write sumthing bad against the Bible. Go to the God haters website or the church of Satan. Cos u have seriously crossed the damn line. U said u believe in one God, but i dare tell u, u donn shit about the God u believe in."

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My respond: Now, Christians, take it slow there can you? I laid down my case and argument with all the senses I can conjure. I criticise the apostles for their poor reporting of events and I gave examples to support my points. I argue about historical facts in the Bible and I asked which Roman Empire — Rome or Constantinople? I hail John’s vision in Revelation and suggested he should have asked what the sea beast was made of — metal or flesh. You know why religion, Christianity for that matter, is argued by some as blind faith? Because you Christians can’t even answer some good questions in your damn Holy Book! But the tragedy is you faithful continue to put aside that need to want answers and each time you can’t get answer you consoled yourself saying, "That’s the wonder of God".
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God has gifted us human with the most precious of blessings — knowledge and mind. That make us different from the rest of animals on earth. I say we are doing God a great service if we continue to seek meaning behind meaning in His Book. I’m sure He likes it if we strive to possess at least a quarter of His wisdom, for He has made us in His form anyway.
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Religions afterall don’t contribute much to human civilisation. Religions don’t find the law of gravity or light or make us cars and trains. The Wright brothers who found airplanes might not even go to church. Religions only make war. We have thick documents in the history of mankind to support my claim here. Religion only civilised man in the value of intangible things as well as sense of belonging along with the sentiment which is the same thing that drives us to war against our neighbours of opposite faith. Had only they elected a Pope to become the president of United States, I think Bill Gates would not have been allowed to invent Microsoft Windows for such creation can rival that of God; overshadowing God’s intelligence.
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What has the priests contributed to human civilisation? A new secret place to fuck the little boys and girls under the protection of the cross — The Vatican ! But the real tragedy with you religious people is your over protective attitude. When confronted by people who question your faith you call for a crusade against the anti-Christs or a jihad against the infidels. The least you would do is condemning that fella to dwell with Satan in hell. I’m sure you would have wanted to see name of Dan Brown, author of Da Vinci Code, on the hell-bound list.
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The real weapon of mass destruction is religion, any religions for that matter. They are already millions of highly trained devotees-berserkers from worship houses around the world ready to die for their faith. It’s just the matter of time before the real WMD explodes.
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Even if it should comes to that it is God’s wish, you may say. That, or it’s your wish, warmongers.
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Think out of the box please.
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A respond: "Yes i am damn sure that Jesus knows the world is round. If u dont believe he is God u wont believe he knows it. "

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My Gawd, don’t make up your head to make up your mind. Especially about my pointing out the obvious here. There can be some truth in my argument. The reason why it’s hard for you to accept it is because it comes from a simple man like me. I am afterall not a pope or bishop or church leader. But maybe a simple mind is what it takes to see Bible from the correct persepective. Since you Christians believe in the Bible so much that you can even start a religion based on teachings there, therefore I raised questions based on what has been written there. I asked is there any mention by the apostles or Christ himself that suggest earth is round shape. If there’s no mention of it… then we can safely assume they were ignorant of a simple common sense like that. Yet these are the same people who tried to tell us life after death?!
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I’m not talking crap here. I picked up something from the Bible. Something that has been there for centuries but noone want to see it. Now see it !
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A guy: "Should read the bible more…it’s really can help you in settling some of your daily problem… "

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. Unfortunately, the reading of the Bible alone cannot settle everyday problems, bro. Just as the Not-reading the Bible is the cause of the problems .

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A girl: Problems comes from all direction. Reading the bible helps us overcome problems and deal with it in the most sane way.

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Forgive me for disagreeing again. Bible don’t give the sane solutions to everday’s problems. It works as a good guideline, off course, so the troubleshooting of problem is still within moral acceptable to human. BUT! bear in mind, what is sane to the Bible is not necessarily sane to the Al Quran, and vice versa. It’s their trying to agree on one thing that lead to war between them in chronic cases.

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Speaking of sane solution. Dropping atomic bomb on Hiroshima in 1947 was the most insane of a problem-solving measure ever taken by human race. But I think I can forgive the bombing. Because the bombing also stop the insanity in Japanese invasion in half of the world, subsequently bringing the war to a quick end. It stop another form of evil from continue ravaging people’s life. Don’t forget, the Japanese then worship the sun. What is sane to them Sun woshippers were probably raiding countries, sacking cities, pillaging homes, shooting at will, raping women and girls in the losing cities. Millions of lives were lost unnecessarily in the wake. To us, that’s insane. To them, the dropping of atomic bomb’s more insane. So the question is thrown back to you — how do you define what is insane?

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I hail the Bible being a book of morals but if we should solve a problem, it’s wise not to confine our resource to knowledge found only in the Holy Book. For one thing, even Christ and all his apostles and his prophets never even imagine Internet addiction one day in the future. For another thing, what was relevant in the Bible days is no longer relevant these days, for most parts.

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A girl: " I will disagree with all the above. The Bible will only be sane if u really believe it. If u dont it wont be.  It is still applicable even today. For me it is.

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(Hebrews 4:12)
For the word of God is living and active. (The Bible is not living, but The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63) Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. The Bible cannot judge your heart; but the Spirit of Christ, the Word of God, can and does! "
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Geez, girl, you know what you’re disagreeing there when you said you disagree with all the above? I can understand if you disagree with my saying that the teachings in the Bible are no longer relevant in the modern living. I supposed our disagreement is due largely to the fact that you’re the faithful; I’m a free thinker.

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But I hate to think that you disagree that the dropping of atomic bomb on Hiroshima was insane? You disagree that Jesus and his disciples don’t know Internet during their times?
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The girl: "I wasnt refering to the internet and the bombing in Hiroshima. Besides that has nothing to do with what we discussed. Anyways bombing in Hiroshima probably happens because people disobey God. What i was trying to say is that what ever happens in life The Words in the Bible can be a guidiance and gives u hope. It applies in every situation in life. If u believe God created u and u live for his purpose and not the other way round then perhaps u have no problem trusting God’s words. That is all….nothing to do about Hiroshima or the Internet. Anyways i believe Jesus knew about the internet even before we discover it. But he didnt come to teach his desciples about science and technology becuse his ministry is about God’s kingdom and eternal salvation for all. Amen
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My view: You know what they’ll do to astronout Neil Armstrong had he lived in early centuries? They’ll burn him at stake for saying earth is round shape. It’s the same execution they’d do to witches. Another man, Gallileo if I’m not mistaken, said earth is round shape. He was burned at stake by the church for saying that.
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Remember Joan of Arc? They said she’s a witch, too, and she, too, was burned at stake.

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Speaking of earth is round, is there any mention in the Bible that says Earth is round? Did Jesus know earth is round shape?

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A girl: " goodness gracious. Yes i am damn sure that Jesus knows the world is round. If u dont believe he is God u wont believe he knows it. It all comes from whether u believe he is God or not. If u dont believe he is, why on earth do u need to ask such question???? because for sure u will say he dosent know. DANG!!!! Catholic church did that and i know what they did was a mistake. Besides ada meh the Catholic menyusahkan u? U go ur way laa…u happy or not u hal la. Besides i tak mengaku pun burning joan of arch ya tindakan yg betul. Ishhh….KELUAR TOPIC DAH KAU YA!!!! "
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The rewards of it is not in this world but in heaven. Eternal fellowship with God in heaven is what all of us long for. Rest from all difficulties, fear and pain and spend 24/7 with God.

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One question, has anyone seen heaven? Has anyone been to heaven and back? And tell us later, full consciously, how it’s like up there? I’ve heard of some people who claim they have been there but their stories are dubious. Much like something they manufactured overnight.

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Now, we believe there’s heaven because some people in the past said there is heaven awaits us after death. This same people did not even know the shape of the earth! How is that relevant? Do they even know there’s snow in Canada? Likewise, how can you take advice from someone about drug when that someone doesn’t even know what paracetamol/panadol is?

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I maintain, heaven is like a fairy tale. Something to long for, some hope finally when death is so frightening, being reason why this fairy tale can appeal to sweet girl like you and also appealing as much to church leaders who are unsurprisingly ’sissy’. Real men believe in doing good deeds and honourable acts among the kinsfolks without expecting reward after their time on earth is over.

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That girl again: " YES THERE IS HEAVEN…BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO AND NOTHING’S GONNA CHANGE MY MIND ON THAT. IF U THINK IT’S LIKE A FAIRY TALE THEN IT’S UP TO U 007. IF U THINK I DONT THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX IS ALSO UP TO U. WHATEVER U BELIEVE IN KEEP IT TO URSELF AND DONT INFLUECE OTHER WHOM ARE IN HERE. UR REALLY PISSING ME OF IN THAT AREA. I DONT MIND U CONDEMNING ME, BUT DONT TRY TO POISION OTHERS WHOM ARE TRULY SEEKING GOD. COS U HAVE REALLY REALLY CROSSED THE LINE. "

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That girl: Besides i tak mengaku pun burning joan of arch ya tindakan yg betul.

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Now that’s a good start. If the church leaders can make mistake about someone as wonderful as Joan of Arc they could have been making many other mistakes over times. If they were wrong about something as simple as the shape of earth they could have been mistaken over many other things. Maybe… maybe this religion is a mistake from the start !
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That girl: " UR REALLY PISSING ME OF IN THAT AREA. "

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Pissing you? But what about others like BN and Sarjan Mohi and Ibanez who seem to really want to get to the bottom of this? This is a public forum. What is sensitive to some can be enlightening to some others. I call for maturity in each and everyone of us who come across the debate here. My objective is to drag my audience to think out of the box; to be fair to themselves, be wise and be critical for their own benefit. If you can’t make better of me then treat me like Dan Brown and his Davinci Code. Treat me like a test to your faith. If, despite my "preaching" here you still hold firm to your believe and faith, then you can hail yourself as a true Christian. I’m sure your God will be proud of a devotee like you. That between you and God. I won’t take any credit for that, anyway.

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Until then, let’s continue seeking God. Look for him in places other than in the church. He could be somewhere….outside…. out of the box.

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Same girl: " WHATEVER U BELIEVE IN KEEP IT TO URSELF AND DONT INFLUECE OTHER WHOM ARE IN HERE. "
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I believe in logics, Ena. Unfortunately logics are scarce in the Holy Bible. The gospel of Paul is full of craps for that matter. Imagine I put myself in his shoes. I pengsan while on the way to Damascus while hunting down Christians and later after I got up I tell people I had been visited by God in my dream. Next, I become a Christian myself. Go back to the "crime scene". Who was there to verify my story and second my claim. For all we know I just make it up. For all we know I was still an agent for the Anti-Jesus. Maybe the Anti-Jesus then had found a better way to crush Christianity, that is to send agents to act from within the movement itself. If that’s the case, I must say Paul was their best "James Bond". He blended so well with the Christians that he eventually was appointed an apostle among the twelve. He was not hand picked by Jesus Christ, Ena, he was not handpicked by Jesus. The first twelve such as, Peter, Matthew, Luke and even Judas Ischariot, were appointed by Jesus personally. If I’m not mistaken even Peter dislikes Paul.

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Imagine this scenario pulak. Had only Paul pengsan while on the way to Putra Jaya in 2006 and later announce he saw Jesus in his pengsan-dream would you believe him? Would you? Why it was very convenient to see God in vision many centuries ago. Because it was a convenient excuse.

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You see, Ena, I don’t simply criticise Christian religion here. I raise matters that can be of great concern to the Christians had only they want to see it like how I see it. Things I said in the previous posts and now ada logic. It calls for our common sense about how people who don’t know how earth is round shape want to tell us about heaven pulak?! About how Luke tells of "holy spirit" but couldn’t describe how that holy spirit looks like. In logical sense, my questions hold ground.

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Perhaps if you would read the Bible again and pay particular attention to the parts of Luke writing about holy spirit and Paul’s dream in Damascus road maybe you also can suspect the same thing I was suspecting. In fact there are many parts, in the New Testament especially, that can really dumbfounded you. Spare a moment to understand it rationally, understand it like a book critic. Some questions about truth behind what’s written can spring out.

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Good luck. Looking forward to seeing you in the same ‘church’ with me.
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Same girl: Look, a person will only get what is in the bible if the Spirit reveals it to him. Otherwise, that person will never believe in a million years. If u dont believe in miracles and that Christ is God it will be difficult for u to get anything out of it.

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The one who decieves speaks and act in the most cunning way to lure people. He makes as though what he says seems so right. But as we all know he is the father or all lies and nothing he says is the truth. He will poke u in every way possible to bring u down, even if it does not seem that he is doing that but that is exactly what he is trying to do. Bringing u down in any ways possible and in any ways that u never even though of. But Jesus have said, he who is in you is more powerful than he who is in this world. U may be good with words and that’s the greatest tool u have to decieve.

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All that u have debated in here have been well debated over the years and nothing will change the fact that the words in the Bible is the word of God and the new and old testament fits perfectly in it’s place. U intepreted all the scriptures base on ur own understanding and u are side tracking. U do not take account of why it was written, to whom, and the context and so on. The Bible can say to u what ever u wish it to say if u dont read it with the right spirit. If u read it like a history book then history book it will be to you and the word will never impact u.

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Most of the reason why people get side tracked because they dont understand why, what and the significant of it. If u read the words for the sake of reading it like a novel, u will just see it as u want it to be. If u meditate upon it and apply it to ur life u will see how it will be a guide line for ur life.

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Part of the reason why people condemn religion and the bible is because they dont want to be bound by rules and laws. They want to be free and do whatever it is that they want. Well…..the choice is in ur hands. I have no rights to condemn anyways, after all, u are all God’s children and He loves u even as u deny him and his words. Jesus is the greatest gift but people do not recieve him. He is the grace of God but people prefer to recieve human praise. They are too proud to admit that they need God in their life.
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My view: Quoting you, "The one who decieves speaks and act in the most cunning way to lure people. He makes as though what he says seems so right. "

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Your quote: " But as we all know he is the father or all lies and nothing he says is the truth. He will poke u in every way possible to bring u down, even if it does not seem that he is doing that but that is exactly what he is trying to do. "…. " Bringing u down in any ways possible and in any ways that u never even though of. But Jesus have said, he who is in you is more powerful than he who is in this world."

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I’m sorry, Ena, but this things you said above sound like the same moral lessons we’ve read in many fairy tales. It’s good versus evil all over again. But don’t you forget even fairy tales by Oscar Wilde and Christian Hans Andersan were edited. In some parts the modern day writers changed the mention of biological mother to stepmother so as to keep to keep our sense of humanity on the right track. And that’s how I digest your "advice" here — back tracking the good morals. But I can’t take it as evidence in this debate. There is expression of opinion and there is point of argument. I appreciate your expression of good values but the bad Christianity is still far from rescue in this debate.

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Your quote: " U may be good with words and that’s the greatest tool u have to decieve."

…. and you may have the good heart to defend Christianity, Ena but most of the things you said were suspects. For your information, Jesus Christ was also good with words, if we’re comparable. We’ve read how the crowd were amazed with His answers when quizzed by the Pharisees and lawyers. We’ve read how he saved the prostitute from being stoned by the masses. All he did was talk. He said "Let the one who has not sinned cast the first stone". I would give him a standing ovation as to show admiration.

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Following your logics about one who’s good with words, could it be that Jesus of Nazareth, the carpenter, the wise talker, is one of us — a deceiver?
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Your quote: " all that u have debated in here have been well debated over the years and nothing will change the fact that the words in the Bible is the word of God and the new and old testament fits perfectly in it’s place. "

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You mean His words written by others? You mean Luke, Matthew, John and others quoted Him in their gospels? One question, Ena. A very simple one: Why Christ don’t write his own book? Because he’s just a carpenter? Thank you.

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Do you know when the gospels were written by respective authors? Before death or after Christ’s died on the cross? It was after death, agree? Now, had the writers verify their facts with Christ prior to publishing it? No, they can’t because he’s already dead. Understand this about book writing, we know of how old articles such as in fairy tales got edited through ages. Likewise, there’s no gurantee that Books in the Bible has escaped this manner of editing, started from Roman scholars. Today we read Bible in English. But do you also know that the Bible was first translated into English by Tyndall in 1885? (if I’m not mistaken; or earlier) before it was made into Holy Bible King James Version it is today. Do you know what happened to this man who took the initiative to translate it? The Church killed him !!!

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Back to the real issue "Words of God". Considering the many possibilities of the Bible having suffered editing in the hands of many writers, from mentors to mentees or gurus to proteges, can we still agree that what’s been written in the Bible being the "original words of God" ?! Can you not suspect some mischiefs might have slipped through?

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As I said previously, the supposedly Holy people and church leaders have been wrong many times in the past to the point that they even burned Joan of Arch an stake. That should make us thinking: " how many times have they been wrong about the religion really?"

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Same girl: " If u read the words for the sake of reading it like a novel, u will just see it as u want it to be. If u meditate upon it and apply it to ur life u will see how it will be a guide line for ur life. "

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My view: It’s the same way we read fairy tales like Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, Ena. If we don’t try to find logics in it we can enjoy the story and embrace the teaching of morals easily. But if we start to question how it is possible that a pumpkin can turn into a coach
and rats turn into horses then the complicated argument set in.

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But we don’t want to read the Bible like reading fairy tales, Ena because the Bible is a serious book, concerning life after death, about soul salvation, hence the questioning of logics in the Bible is necessasitate. Because we don’t want to believe what’s written in the Bible blindly. Because we don’t want to be misled, again. Because we don’t want to burn Joan or Arc at the stake by mistake the second time.
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Same girl: " Part of the reason why people condemn religion and the bible is because they dont want to be bound by rules and laws. They want to be free and do whatever it is that they want. "
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On the contrary. It’s the people who uphold the teachings of the faith that are free. They are free to condemn others being sinful. They are free to demand money from the poor, saying it’s for God. They are free to fuck someone else’s daughters under the protection of the cross. They’re free to refrain the youth from listening to music of their choice, saying such music is of Satan. They’re free to call for a crusade, saying it’s to protect God and kill and die for His glory. They’re free to inteprate what’s written in the Holy Book, free to dictate our behaviour. They’re free to wield the power of God’s Book and words.

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They’re free to say the prostitutes are immoral people … when Jesus himself befriends and pardons prostitutes. What irony.

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That girl: U may talk about logics all u want . U with logics and i with what i believe in. 
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… in another words you’re not being fair to yourself. How would you feel, Ena, if 10 years from now Pope Benedict makes public apology over the content in the Holy Bible, saying it has been tempered with and that a new finer version is necessary in order to save the religion? How would you feel if in that new version they take out the mentioning of Holy Spirit altogether. The meaning of Holy Spirit, something you believe to have co-existed with Jesus and God, is subject to reconstruction in a sudden. This kind of thing can happen, Ena. Question is, how bad that will blow your morale?

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So as to keep our souls and faith from being exploited and misguided by man-made "scriptures" our only protection is our own wisdom and hunger for truth. Remember, the Bible does not come by facsimile from heaven. I would agree with you if you ask me to feel the existence of God in my heart, my subconscious mind when fully awake. For I can feel He’s around and that He’s watching over us. But I don’t believe in Holy Bible so much that I would refrain myself from questioning some possible flaws written there. That book was written by immortal being like me and you; people who can mistakes. In fact, in term of universal knowledge we are better learner than those first century writers…. for we know the earth is round shape; while they still think it’s flat.
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Same girl: " But the real thing that is most important is not church politics or which church u go to for that matter, for when Jesus comes he will not ask which church u went to."

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Then we are better off making do WITHOUT the church altogether. Why spend millions of dollars maintaning Vatican City and feeding the fat bishops? Why bother building another SIB church when we already have an Anglican church next door? Why the killing in Ireland if all churches are the same?

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Don’t you know we actually want the same thing here, Ena, that is to get rid of all differences already created by the church leaders and worship God just as how He might have wanted it, that is to direct our faith straight to Him, bypassing Virgin Mary and the trinity crap.

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Same girl: " I seriously have no problems beliving in the new testament because i dont read it out of context".

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Yes, you don’t read out of context and you also don’t read between lines. What is "Holy Spirit", Ena, if you can describe it to me, if you can restrict your description to the context of the New Testament. You can’t describe it to me because you don’t read it out of context. Girls in medieval age don’t read out of context, I guess.

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Same girl: " Jesus Christ stated clearly that the cause of spiritual misunderstanding is the lack of scriptural knowledge and belief in an all-powerful God."

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Then you can also believe craps from Montezuma’s priests when they ask for human sacrifice everyday so the sun continue rising over Aztec. In most proven cases in the world history, Ena, what can be explained only in spirtual or mystical terms today will one day be explained in scientific terms not necessarily in support of the former. In most cases about traditional religions from the past… they had been proven wrong. Whatever happen to Japanese Sun God now? Whatever happen to Zeus now? Whatever happen to all Pagan gods now?

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Perhaps it’s okay to say it’s the matter of time before development in science produce another surprise at the expense of yet another great religion. The day when NASA confirms the existence of UFO is the day when Christianity will suffer.

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Same girl: " In Christ’s day, the Sadducees taught there is no resurrection. Christ disagreed". 

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You know why you cannot agree with the Sadducees? Because you have made up your mind to agree with Christ. Try for a change to doubt Christ, you’ll find the Sadducees asking very rational questions. If Christ said men come from evolution of apes would you believe that? Yes you would. Because Christ says that. You’d believe anything he says.

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Same girl: " The Bible is the only source of spiritual truth for all mankind. Although most people will not accept that statement—it is the truth!" 

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Says the Bible. But Christ didn’t even sanction nor authorise the publishing of Bible.

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Same girl: " The Bible gives easy-to-understand answers to life’s most important questions. In fact, the Bible gives the real answer about heaven." 

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Because only mythical book can explain the mythical events. Likewise, only mathemathic book can explain the law of numbers and Biology book explains human anatomy.

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Bible on the other hand can’t answer questions relevant with our life since most of Christ’s teaching were made in parables or metaphors. It’s the interpretation of the parable by the church leaders that make it relevant with today’s questions. Try interprate texts from Book of Revelation if Christianity is all about interpreting vague messages.

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So they did try to decipher tough codes in the holy book. But life’s most important question — when is the end of the world — remain unanswered. Many predictions have been made by many Bible scholars, off course, about the armageddon. The fact that we’re still breathing the same old air today prove them wrong again and again.

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Same girl: " The Bible challenges our thinking and quashes our cherished beliefs." 

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Precisely! Then why listen to one side of story? Why listen to Paul? Why fear the prediction in John’s Revelation? The Bible challenges me and I answer that challenge.

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Same girl: " When we want truthful answers to vital spiritual questions — we must turn to the Bible, not to what men think."

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We turn to the Holy Bible allright and there we found the answers, if these instances are any relevances:

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1. That God loves Israel so much that He had asked King Saul to wipe out a Palastenian tribe after the Israel army defeated them in battle. That’s genocide, don’t you think?

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2. That 12yo Jesus troubled His parents by remaining in Jerusalem talking to the priests while his father and mother had joined the caravan back to Nazareth? And when the parents finally found him, the unapologotic young Jesus told them it’s there where he belongs. Right, it’s God’s wish. But isn’t that also an act of disobedience to parents, especially for a 12 year old?

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3. That we should turn the other cheek. Oh okay, then you should allow the baddies to rape your daughter, too, after they’re done with your wife.

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In reaction to the above cases maybe you want to say, " We can decide what is the right thing to do." Bang! Gotcha! Still it’s up to you to make the answer, right? Then why bother looking up in the Bible?

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